On The Anxiety Of Hoagies: A Conversation
A CONVERSATION BETWEEN TOM KRETCHMAR & JOEY SWEENEY | Over the years, native Philadelphians Tom Kretchmar, a divorce lawyer and omnivore, and Joey Sweeney, editor and publisher of this website, have been enjoying an ongoing conversation about food, music, and Philadelphia — usually with at least two of those topics overlapping. Last weekend, though the two had no plans to do so, they had an accidental hoagie summit, which we believe was interesting enough, at least, to publish here, in lightly edited form. It began when Kretchmar posted this photo on Instagram:
Tom Kretchmar: Joseph, speaking of hoagie vibes — on my last trip to town before this one, on what felt like a bit of a flyer I decided to get a classic Italian from Woodrow’s, which I’d never heard of before but stumbled across via some Google search I did for what’s great/still great in Philly hoagies. It was hands down, by a standard deviation or even two, the best classic Italian hoagie I’ve ever had, to the best of my recollection. Any thoughts on this place? And I know it’s in your neighborhood, too; all the more reason I’m curious to ask…
Joey Sweeney: No way! Their logo made me think it was cheugy gentrifier stuff, so I’ve stayed away. (Yes I judge things by fonts).
TK: That is 1000% reasonable. I mean everything about it in the nature of those sorts of things made me think I shouldn’t have even considered it but for whatever reason I did and man. It was GREAT.
JS: Well shit. I’m gonna try it and report back. It’s funny how easily I have walked by that place and just been like, nah. I think am ambiently worried about the gentrification of the hoagie and the contemporary species of “pizza bro.” Like, the Beddia omakase hoagie room is deeply offensive to me just as a concept.
TK: So like, part of the thing that really worked for me about the Woodrow’s hoagie is that it is ever so slightly elevated/refined, ***BUT*** squarely within the boundaries of what a hoagie needs to be in order to be legit and not bullshit. Like, for example, they use mortadella, but choose to use that style of mortadella with pistachios in it. That’s not some outre bullshit, Italians have been making mortadella like that for thousands of years (give or take a thousand years or whatever). But it did bring something nice and new to the whole undertaking. And it definitely wasn’t like, you know, “here we took a classic Italian and added shredded heirloom carrots dressed in a root beer balsamic glaze, and our rolls are schmeared with a sea scallop pesto, an homage to our favorite starter at our favorite Tuscan sushi joint in SF.”
The Italian, from Woodrow’s.
JS: Bahahaha, you get it! Although I must say… Mortadella was absent from most hoagie experiences, I believe, until a few years ago. I think it’s funny that it’s hot now. Bc it’s… baloney.
TK: That does sound right — I admit I did pause and ask myself “have you ever seen mortadella on a hoagie before?” And I didn’t think I had but then also, what you said - baloney!
JS: All aboard the baloney pony!
TK: Ok so another thing while we’re at it, I had another hoagie discovery lately that blew my mind — I’ve been coming to town a lot the last month or so to help my mom out with stuff around the house, so I’ve been doing a lot of hoagie recon/reeducation during that time…
JS: You’re a good son.
TK: …Another spot I ordered a classic Italian from, Pastificio — you been/familiar?
JS: No but I know exactly where this is! Packer Park, next to Chickie’s & Pete’s.
TK: I noticed their menu included as an add-on option “pepper shooters spread,” which immediately caught my attention. So I asked that it be added to my hoagie. Joey, that was one of the smartest Philly food moves I’ve ever made. It was glorious. I didn’t/haven’t asked in follow up yet but I’m pretty sure it’s just finely minced pepper shooters blended into mayo. It’s absolutely brilliant.
JS: Whoa.
TK: And I know many/most people would say mayo never belongs on a hoagie but let’s get past that. This wasn’t mayo. This was a glory unto itself. I could not rec more highly!
JS: Right - I get you. I’m agnostic about the mayo thing. Agree that olive oil is proper and infallible but man if you are sad and you need that mayo, go get it.
TK: One might choose to say mayo is nothing more than oil and egg and in some instances vinegar, so mayo on a hoagie is what, just another way of doing oil and vinegar plus and egg, and who ever argued against adding an egg to anything? I’d even take an egg on a Tastycake if offered. Ok wait but real talk now I’m thinking about a fried egg atop a soft pretzel and that has real legs right there…
JS: An olive oil fried egg.
TK: Now I’m reminded of this, from, heaven help me, almost 9 years ago. And needless to say this was in Philly and the crabs were from Anistasi’s.
JS: Have you had the Mancuso’s hoagie?
TK: No and I was literally about to ask what hoagie intel/guidance you have for me. Please, go on!
JS: It’s kind of like, remember how since the beginning of time we all smoked dirt weed, and then one day… THE WEED GOT STRONG?
TK: Ha, no weed in my own backstory, but I think I understand and please keep going.
JS: I think it’s just because he (Jake, the Philly kid who has taken over the shop) is operating in the platonic ideal for hoagie conditions. Like it’s all ordered by him, they’re slicing everything right there, he has a certain way he puts it all together, and then there’s the traditional but still in-house handmade things like longhots, etc.
TK: Ok so Mancuso’s, what’s the order?
JS: Straight up Italian hoagie with long hots.
TK: Because that’s the other thing, I’ve been going squarely classic Italian.
JS: Agreed. It’s like, if a pizza place can do one great plain slice, they have me. If not, what are we even doing here?
TK: I did also order a cold roast pork with rabe from Pastificio and that was good but when I see all the other options on these menus I just feel like, how can I figure out what your shop’s true self is if I just order like a, chicken parm “hoagie” from you? Which maybe is great but I’ll never know. Ok it sounds like you’re agreed that I’m not being close-minded on that point, not at least as far as hoagie shop ontology goes.
JS: Absolutely. I need to hear the riff before I hear the solo.
TK: This is why I come to you with these questions/concerns/confessions/prompts. One other thing if I can get another minute of your time — I don’t mean this as a cheap trick call back (that’s what comedians call it right? A call back?) to your omakase reference above, I mean this sincerely,
JS: Yes sure!
TK: So there’s a Korean-owned deli in Center City that’s been doing a bulgogi hoagie for years. I’m completely in love with and inspired by the whole idea of it and what it represents. I had it once around 4 years ago. Was a perfect neighborhood cheesesteak with a perfect and sensible twist — meat marinated bulgogi style. So on my last trip through town, I was thinking one day (the day I ended up ordering from Woodrow’s, I believe) that I wanted to revisit that shop and that Korean-influence situation. But I couldn’t talk myself into going the cheesesteak route again, just because I don’t have the same appetite for cheesesteaks that I do for hoagies (whom amongst those of us who are our kind of us does?). So, I had this idea (that I did not, that day, execute on, but which I’m still thinking about) of heading to that deli and just asking the sandwich fella if he would make me some sort of classic Philly hoagie but with whatever Korean riff made sense to him. Maybe that means bulgogi meat in a hoagie (misguided idea? amazing idea? Who dares wins/fortune favors the bold), maybe that means a straight up classic Italian but with kimchi in it. I truly don’t know, which is why I was/am interested in basically treating it like a borderline omakase situation and just telling the guy that so long as he’s game for the request, I leave the remainder of the undertaking entirely to his informed imagination. What do you think about this?
I should add, at least subconsciously at the time I must have been thinking about my friend Isaac’s tweet here, and my comment on it:
JS: I think you should absolutely do this and not get hung up on the nomenclature or potential implications. As far as I’m concerned, this is a private arrangement between you and your sandwich man.
TK: I like it. There’s that phrase politicians use (I just tried googling it to confirm I’m not making this up; I got indeterminate results) where they say that as for certain matters/issues, “that’s between us and our god.” More legitimately sacred is the relationship you’ve just described, and the manner in which you’ve described it. Amen.
